Daniel Emmerson​00:00

Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel and I'm the Executive Director of Good Future Foundation. You're joining us for another edition of Foundational Impact, our podcast series where we're exploring AI and technology in schools and we're focusing on teaching and learning. It's an amazing privilege and pleasure to be here at Belgrave today. St. Bartholomew’s Multi Academy Trust. We have two wonderful guests with us. I'll let you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you're doing for work and also what we're doing today.

George Barlow​    00:30

Great morning, Daniel. Great to be here with you this morning. My name is George Barlow and I'm principal at Belgrave St. Bartholomew's Academy and I also lead on some of the digital strategies across our 24 multi academy trust schools. Really excited to be here today and just do some more exploring of AI and the potential of AI in the classroom and also the impact on children, teachers and all the staff across the trust.

Ricky Bridge​00:54

Good morning, Daniel. I'm Ricky and I'm the digital lead here at Belgrave. Really looking forward to today and learning more about AI and how we can implement that within our school to support staff and children.

Daniel Emmerson​01:06

Great stuff, just for context for our audience as well. So the plan for today is that we're offering free professional development around AI literacy, predominantly where we're looking at safeguarding and compliance, but also things like content creation with AI, teacher productivity. And we've invited schools from the surrounding area to attend today's workshops as part of a Good Future Foundation initiative. Before we get into AI and professional development more broadly, I'm wondering if you can tell us a bit about our local context, where we are today, a bit about the school and how tech impacts teaching and learning at Belgrave.

George Barlow​01:43

Great. So, yeah, Stoke, as we know, is a really deprived area nationally. And we're in one of the most deprived areas in Stoke-on-Trent. So we feel it's really important to implement technology, to get your own aspirations and it's things beyond the classroom. So those skills that they're going to take into further life for employment and instill those aspirations in all of our children and make sure there's no ceiling on the learning, no ceiling on where they could be or where they could go. And for us as a school, so we're 83% EAL, so a lot of our children have really low starting points in terms of spoken language, so we've got a real focus on communication and language and tech has enhanced that and AI has had a real big impact on progress and outcomes for those children.

Daniel Emmerson​02:26

Can we just break that down for the benefit of overseas audiences as well? So what does an EAL position in a UK school mean?

George Barlow​02:33

Yeah, English is an additional language. So the spoken language at home is either two languages or there's a predominantly more spoken language. And ours is Urdu, predominantly. So again, we do a lot of work with families to break down those barriers and offer community support. But technology in terms of access to school for parents and children has had a huge impact.

Ricky Bridge​02:52

So just based on the teaching side of things, because obviously that's my role. Often we do is underpinned by science. And Edgar Dale's learning experience, for example, suggests that children after two weeks retain around 10 to 20% or something that they've read. What we're able to provide the children with and expose them to with the technology is doing tasks where they're taking ownership of their learning. They're able to recreate like scientific phenomena, for example, use AR to spin 3D models around and actually bring that learning to life. And the impact is they're likely to learn, likely to remember up to 90% of what they learned after two weeks, which is absolutely phenomenal compared to what you would remember if you just read it.

Daniel Emmerson​03:40

So I'm really interested to know a little bit more about the student community here. Is there anything that you find they engage most with and that they're most passionate about from the tech perspective?

George Barlow​03:51

Yeah. So I think for us it's about like I mentioned before, removing those barriers. A lot of children don't have really positive attitudes to learning when they first come into school. So we make sure we embed our values and then tech allows them to access all learning. So we talk about low prep, high ceiling for our staff. So we have low prep resources we can create for your tech and high ceiling learning aspirations for all children. And we see that across school in the skills that they develop. So independence. For example, all of our children from Year 1 to Year 6 choose how they present their work. Say, do you want to create a movie, do you want to do a podcast, do you want to dictate rather than physically write? And again, that's empowering them to take ownership of the learning.

Daniel Emmerson​04:32

There's a lot of focus on that in education at the moment. Using technology to ensure that when students are demonstrating subject specific knowledge that they're not limited, for example to writing something down. Can you maybe tell us a bit more about that as a school, how you engage students with project based learning and the podcast recording for example that you mentioned.

George Barlow​04:53

Yeah, definitely. So from my point of view, I've done a lot of podcasting with senior members of staff across the trust and that's personal development for leaders and staff. Whereas we've also looked at podcasts in school for children sharing their knowledge and understanding, which can then be shared across school. So it's the peer to peer learning. And Ricky has got a fantastic example. We had Ofsted in at the start of the week. A fantastic example of a geography lesson that empowered children and didn't put a ceiling on learning.

Ricky Bridge​05:19

And yes. So we've done lots of work around the elements of high quality teaching and in particular the embedding phase of that. And like you said, bringing learning into life and not limiting things just to writing. And I think what I like to do is to give real context and real life kind of experience. So I taught a geography lesson on Tuesday. Yeah, on Tuesday. And it was looking at how our coastlines change over the years. So it was a five step process that we broke down and I used a keynote animation to demonstrate each stage and talked over.

Daniel Emmerson​05:53

Can you just tell us a bit about what that is? Just to unpack that.

Ricky Bridge​05:56

So it was how, I think it was Durdle Door at Dorset. It was how the arch has been formed over time. And so it starts off as a small crack due to weathering that then becomes a cave over time that then deepens and becomes an actual arch. It then weathers even further, corrodes and it crumbles and you get what's called the stack. And over time that weathers and becomes a stump. So it's a five step process for the children, but actually they're actually being able to visualize this as I'm giving the information. They were then making notes using dual coding. So they had lots of dual coding images to kind of support that learning and make the connections. And once they'd made the notes, they then produced their own animation and the results were amazing. Yeah, I did a post on LinkedIn. I was that impressed.

Daniel Emmerson​06:47

I saw it. It's great stuff. I'm wondering what's the parent response to this approach to teaching and learning? Because obviously it's a little outside of the mainstream or certainly traditional forms of teaching and learning. What sort of response do you get from the broader community?

George Barlow​07:03

I think initially the community were quite skeptical. So we've done a lot of work to get parents into school to experience what a lesson using technology feels like. And the response from parents is I wish I was in school now and I wish we had this when we were younger. So the fact that it gives them access to what children are doing on a day to day basis. So it's not a wait until parents evening. They've got live feedback from every day's lesson at home, so they can see exactly what children are learning. And then if they want to support children at home, fantastic. And embed that learning. It's just opened doors and opportunities to the community and to families.

Ricky Bridge​07:39

Quite a few parents have got this kind of stigma around screen time and that's why we invite parents in and they can quite often see that as quite a negative. This gets screen time here and they get screen time at home. But I think once they see the impact of the technology and that's. It's been really important, hasn't it? The Ofsted inspector that was in the lesson on Tuesday actually asked me if I had any SEN learners in the room. We couldn't identify them because the technology has removed those barriers.

Daniel Emmerson​08:07

Because there are different types of screen time. Right. And the parents need to get their heads around. Could you talk us through that, how you interpret that?

George Barlow​08:16

Yeah. So we've had quite a few conversations and meetings where we shared with parents that, look, we use screen time effectively to enhance teaching and learning and to give your children access to learning. It's not used as a pacifier and a behavior management tool. It's used to impact on progress, teaching and learning and also things like self esteem. Because children can be successful using technology, they're flourishing in our school. So for me, it's that parent understanding of the types of screen time and actually putting some learnings back on parents to say we're using it effectively. Have a think about how your children are using this at home. Are you using this as a behavior management tool? Are they having too much screen time? Is that having a detrimental impact on your child at home?

Daniel Emmerson​08:57

To move on a little bit into the realm of artificial intelligence and how it’s impacting teaching at the school? How are you as a school engaging with this technology at the moment? And what have been the initial responses from both teachers and parents in terms of that engagement?

George Barlow​09:12

Well, it's really exciting for us, but as you can imagine, some staff are quite skeptical. And there's the things in the media around how negative AI is and all the stories. Whereas we've. I'd say we're in the explore slash implementation phase of using AI. Obviously, Ricky is the expert as a digital lead really digging deeper into using it in the classroom. And we've got a strategy at trust level that's going to impact also admin staff and there's that broader range of using AI. But for me, we did a staff audit to see where people's views are and how they feel about AI. And the percentage of staff that actually thought AI was cheating was quite scary, wasn't it? So that was the first barrier we knew we needed to get over. And Ricky did some really high quality CPD. And then Ricky's also now looking at impacts in the classroom. And just for me, from monitoring, one amazing example that I saw was we've got some really high levels of EAL, as I already mentioned. So children accessing text. So staff had taken the text, put that into our AI to generate an image so children could see exactly if they couldn't, due to the complexity of the language, see what that should mean. They've got that dual coding to see the image and the text and be like, wow, that's what I need to see as the reader. It's just how we would have done that before AI. It would have been a discussion and it didn't bring it to life. But I'm sure Ricky's got lots of examples of AI in the classroom as well.

Daniel Emmerson​10:33

Please, Ricky, go ahead.

Ricky Bridge​10:34

Thank you very much. So, yes, we've also sent out a staff audit as well. There's around 70% of staff now that are now using AI within their teaching practice and that can be in the class, but also pre teaching. So over the summer, I worked to create an AI booklet just to explain to staff what AI actually is, what the leading language models are, how they work and then how we can use as pre, during and post teaching. So if I just touch on the pre teach, we're using it to write waggles and kind of model write pieces, rather than sitting there for hours and, you know, racking your brain of, I need to include this, I need to include this.

George Barlow​11:16

Squeeze a semicolon in some way.

Ricky Bridge​11:20

So a lot of staff are now using it in that sense. Also analogies for difficult concepts that are hard to kind of understand. So if I just give you an example, longitude and latitude, for example, how can you explain that to children? And I would ask ChatGPT or whatever AI software that you're using, and it said to explain it as a Terry's Chocolate Orange broken down. So we're using for analogies, ask it to identify possible misconceptions that may arise in that lesson, typing text in and asking it to create comprehension questions. I mean, it's just endless. What you can use it for pre. During the lessons. I know that staff have been using it for writing with children. So in English, for example, we've had staff putting the children's work into AI. It's then producing an image and then that promotes a discussion. Is this what you expected, the church? Sort of like, no.

Daniel Emmerson​12:20

Right.

Ricky Bridge​12:20

What you need to do, I need to go and edit my adjectives and make them more descriptive to bring that image to life. So it's been really powerful in that sense.

Daniel Emmerson​12:29

And the flip side to that, I suppose, is the responsible use and the best practice. The data privacy, the versions orthe models that you're using for AI teacher engagement, how much time are you spending on that? And is that an area of risk, do you think, moving forward?

George Barlow​12:46

Yeah, definitely. So we've drafted together a whole trust policy at the minute that we're really working on and focusing on which AI models can be safely used by staff and ethically used by staff. And then which ones can we start to create and develop now to support children? Because obviously we can't just say to children, you've got the ChatGPT app on your iPad, go and use it. Because there's issue around data. So we've been really careful in the trial models that we're using and then we're going to come up with a really effective policy that's going to safeguard everyone.

Daniel Emmerson​13:17

And what would you say then to school leaders who are thinking about firmly embedding or integrating more technology and perhaps even AI into their curriculums, but perhaps are a little unsure about where to start?

George Barlow​13:30

I think. I think that comes back to focusing on your why. Like, why are you using it? Just because other people are using it? That isn't a strong enough value and core belief in using AI. So we've really focused on workload for staff as a starting point is one of our whys. And then for pupils, it's bringing learning to life. We want to bring it and give it purpose. So start with the why and then go from there.

Daniel Emmerson​13:52

Amazing stuff. From a teaching perspective, I mean, you're the digital lead, Ricky. Right. So I'm sure there are others in trusts up and down the country or indeed overseas, who can relate to your position. Yeah. Again, lots of digital leads are just assigned the task. You know, AI is out there, there's lots of headlines around it. You know, what are we doing as a school? So what might you say to a digital lead who's put in that position?

Ricky Bridge​14:19

I think you've got to get people on board, first of all, they need to see the impact and that's that, that's the basis. It comes back to the why again, doesn't it? Why are we doing this? And it is for workload. But actually to enhance and transform teaching learning along with outcomes, there needs to be a good CPD program in place. What we've kind of understood is actually the prompting. The AI is a skill in itself. It's not as easy as just typing something really quick and expecting to get exactly what you want. So, you know, we're working on those prompts we've put in that booklet. We've put together a list of different prompts that you could prompt the AI with, depending on what it is you're using it for. But it is about prompting, prompting, prompting, editing. Until you get to that kind of whatever you, you know, whatever you want to produce.

George Barlow​15:14

And for me, Daniel, I think the key as well is making sure children are skilled in that as well. So our computing curriculum totally transformed when we implemented one to one technology. But then with AI it's totally transforming again. So every year group, we've built in an element of AI and teaching on how to safely use AI in terms of your safety and then how to use it effectively to impact their lives. So that's the key.

Daniel Emmerson​15:40

Wise words of encouragement, hopefully and confidence building.

Ricky Bridge​15:44

We've got some really exciting ideas moving forward for AI as well, haven't we?

George Barlow​15:49

Yeah.

Daniel Emmerson​15:49

Do you want to share one or two of those? Yeah.

Ricky Bridge​15:51

So one of them being we would like, or we're in the process of developing with a company, a study buddy for children. So something that's kind of ring, fence and safe, but it's almost like a bot that the children would not ask for the answer. But they, if they're stuck with a problem in maths, for example, they would be able to say, can you give me three steps to help me solve this issue?

George Barlow​16:18

That's why the computing curriculum is vital. So they aren't saying what is the answer to. Yep, it's to give me a clue on how to answer a two step word problem in maths or whatever that problem is. So working really critically with children in that curriculum is key to make sure that is used appropriately and effectively.

Daniel Emmerson​16:34

So it's encouraging more critical thinking.

George Barlow​16:37

Definitely. Independence again.

Daniel Emmerson​16:38

Independence, a deeper knowledge of the subject as opposed to just asking for an answer.

George Barlow​16:43

Yeah, yeah. Tick a box and move on. No, no, that's what we're not about, that we're about embedding deepening understanding and reasoning.

Daniel Emmerson​16:48

Fantastic stuff.

Ricky Bridge​16:49

Want to mention the assessments you can.

George Barlow​16:51

Oh, yeah, yeah. This assessment is. This is really exciting.

Ricky Bridge​16:53

So this is kind of, you know, not something that's. What would you say?

George Barlow​16:58

Common language or expected at the minute?

Ricky Bridge​17:03

Yeah, it's not expected and it's something that's. That we're kind of striving to. Towards its use for assessments. So think about, you know, removing those barriers. And assessments are very much, we see them as a memory game. The children are expected to write everything down, which again is a barrier for a lot of our children in particular. So what we would like to do, this idea is to produce podcasts. The children to produce their own podcasts and then to get the AI to help teachers assess and mark those podcasts.

George Barlow​17:35

And again, linking. Sorry, Daniel. Linking that back to research, we found that a 30 second conversation is almost the equivalent of three or four sides of A4 writing, which a Year 3 child, for example, an eight year old is not going to produce, but a critical conversation debating erosion in geography or another issue. I don't know. Was King Henry VIII a moral leader? Having a critical discussion around that is so much more powerful than sticking an image in a book and writing a couple of sentences.

Daniel Emmerson​18:03

And is this something that listeners might be able to find in terms of what you're doing? Because it sounds like you're really engaging with this at quite a high end and obviously a meaningful level for schools that are listening to this and thinking about. Well, really interested to see where this goes. How might people be able to engage with you and find out what the results of this work are?

George Barlow​18:24

Yeah, so currently me and Ricky are sharing quite a lot of the impact on LinkedIn and we've also got our BelgraveYouTube channel which is really well received, isn't it? And, and again, that's worldwide. So we've created support videos in things like phonics and they've gone viral in India. So obviously schools we're impacting on the wider and children are seeing that and being really proud that we're impacting on children are less fortunate as well. In some cases we've had schools email and say thank you, we can't afford to pay for a phonics resource, but you've provided it for us. So that for me is much more important than a pass or fail mark on an exam paper.

Daniel Emmerson​18:59

Definitely encourage our listeners to check that out. Thank you both so much for finding time in an Ofsted inspection week as well to host Good Future Foundation today. And to be a part of this podcast. It's been brilliant speaking with you both.

George Barlow​19:11

Thanks for having us.

Ricky Bridge​19:12

It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

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